Book Marketing Tips and Author Success Podcast
Ready to supercharge your author journey? Join bestselling author and book marketing maven Penny Sansevieri and savvy publishing insider Amy Cornell for lively, no-nonsense conversations filled with smart strategies, creative inspiration, and publishing know-how you can actually use.
Whether you’re self-published, traditionally published, or somewhere in between, this podcast delivers real-world advice to help you sell more books, build your platform, and thrive in the ever-evolving publishing landscape. From clever promo hacks to critical industry insights, each episode is designed to move the needle on your success.
Fresh ideas. Actionable tips. Unfiltered talk.
If you’re serious about your author career, hit subscribe and tune in—your next big breakthrough could be one episode away.
Book Marketing Tips and Author Success Podcast
What Actually Predicts Book Sales And How To Focus Your Effort
Six years in, we’re starting the year by cutting through the noise and zeroing in on what truly predicts book sales. We unpack a practical framework that helps you diagnose why a launch spikes and stalls, why great reviews don’t always translate to revenue, and how small, targeted changes deliver outsized gains. If you’ve ever felt busy but not better off, this conversation will give you focus, language, and a step-by-step path to momentum.
We walk through five core signals: reader response, visibility and impressions, conversions, retention and backlist behavior, and consistent author activity. You’ll learn how review language outperforms star counts, why keywords and categories must be chosen for buyer psychology rather than author preference, and how to hit a healthy 5–10% product-page conversion rate. We share practical fixes—leading with social proof, tightening hooks, clarifying payoff, aligning covers with genre codes—and explain why a 1–2% conversion lift can transform ad ROI. We also address the hidden costs of high click-through rates without purchases and how platforms penalize poor relevance.
For multi-book authors, we dig into retention: series branding that reads at a glance, back-of-book letters that tell readers what to do next, and content that nurtures your list between releases. Throughout, we make the case for consistent, strategic repetition over random hustle, showing how fewer tactics executed well outperform constant, scattershot activity. The result is a calmer plan that compounds: fewer vanity metrics, more signals that correlate with real sales.
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Hello and welcome back to the Book Marketing Tips and Author Success Podcast. This is Penny Sansavery. And Amy Cornell. And happy new year, y'all. Listen, we are so excited to be back. This is our sixth year doing this podcast. I cannot believe we've been doing this for six years, Amy. I know, isn't that wild? It's so crazy. Um, and you know, it's one of those things that I think this was actually in 2020 when we, you know, we were talking about doing this podcast and like, you know, and trying to come up with show ideas. And who knew that we would last for six years, honestly? I know.
SPEAKER_02:I'm I'm very, you know, when we started this, it was so crazy. We're like, okay, do people want to hear this stuff? Because we want to talk about it. Yeah. And it was such a it was such a uh more inspiring and fun medium than the blog, because the blog is super helpful. And I love that we have so much in writing for people that prefer that format. But in terms of us being able to riff off of each other and have conversations around this, that people, I think it really helps a lot of authors fully wrap their minds around these concepts versus, you know, just only seeing, you know, the core pieces in writing, you know, us being able to go back and forth and give examples and things like that. It's just different.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, it is. And the other piece of it though, too, is that I think I kind of like what you said. So we can riff off of each other. People have commented a lot and that they like, you know, they like kind of our chemistry and and how we how we run these shows. But it's also, you know, when you're in someone's ear, um I feel like, I don't know, I just feel like the content is absorbed better. You know what I mean? So, and by the way, we all all we also want to thank y'all for your show ideas and for um the reviews. We're a hundred and we're starting the year with 102 reviews and ratings. We would love to get to 200 by the end of 2026. Y'all have your marching orders. Thank you. Thank you so much. Amy just Amy put in the show notes, by the way, a really simple, easy to understand way to leave a review. So definitely be sure and definitely be sure and check that out. Also want to remind you before we dig into the show, text the word podcast to 888-402-8940. And then you can talk to us directly, send us show ideas, show feedback, all the things. I'm really excited. So December 26th, if y'all listen to that episode, it was it was really short, but we talked about where we're going in the new year. So this is the first episode of where we're going in the new year. And I am so excited about um, I'm I'm so excited about this episode in particular, the the kickoff, because if I do say so myself, I think it's a really smart framework to start off the new year. So we're talking about what actually predicts book sales. And uh a lot of times authors will say to me, what sells books when I, you know, when I do one-on-one consultations. And I'll say, well, you know, it's not really one thing, it's cumulative of doing all of the right things. But then on the other side of it, right, there is signals versus noise. Okay. And that's really what we're unpacking in this show, right?
SPEAKER_02:Yes, I love that phrase, signals versus noise. And it's such an easy way to say, you know, to kind of categorize what you're doing.
SPEAKER_00:Right, exactly. So the difference, and we're let's talk a little bit about the difference because I think it was gonna really help to give authors a framework of what the difference between the two. And I think as you as we start to unpack this, you're gonna go, oh my gosh, you're gonna have quite a few aha moments because I did as we were developing this show. So signals tell us why something is happening, right? Noise just tells us that something is happening, okay. Um, and signals, so you know, repeatable patterns tied to buyer behavior, okay. Signals and signals generally equals book sales. Noise is really just surface level activity. And um, we're gonna give you some more examples during this show because I think it's really helpful to give you other um examples of that you could look at kind of in your own in the in the work that you're doing, but it's surface level activity that feels exciting but doesn't reliably translate to sales. Okay. So an example of noise might be that you launched your book and it spiked on day one, and you got a bestseller flang on Amazon and you screen grabbed it, and that's super exciting. And by day three, the book was languishing somewhere around four million in terms of sales rank on Amazon. So noise is like applause. It's loud, but it doesn't always tell you who bought a ticket. Signals are really your receipts. I mean, Amy, does that make sense? Does that analogy kind of make sense?
SPEAKER_02:Yes, I love that idea of applause, like, yay, you're you're doing stuff, but it's like, what am I doing? Tell me what I'm doing. Right. And that's part of it too, is that you're doing things, but is what you're doing working? And we get so many emails about that too, right, Penny? Like how many people email us and say, I'm doing things, but I I'm pretty sure it's not working and I'm stuck, you know? Right, right.
SPEAKER_00:So if you think about the two, so if you think of if you think of signals being the receipts and noise just being applause, I think that makes a lot of sense, right? Because so that example that I gave the bestseller flag on day one, yay, you did all you did a good thing, your book launched, woo-hoo! But then all of a sudden, you know, nothing is nothing is really going on. And maybe you sold, you know, 50 books on day one, yay you, but then by day three, nothing's really happening. Right. So exactly the noise, you know, noise can sell books in a in a small pocket of time, but the signals is the thing that's really going to carry you through. So a signal to kind of break this down a little bit further, a signal has to meet three criteria, right? It has to reflect um reader, you know, reader intent, right? Um it correlates directly to conversion, obviously, or you know, retention if you're signing people up for your newsletter. And then it show the the biggest piece of this is that it shows up consistently, right? It's not just a one-off spike like the bestseller example. Okay. Um and that's where like if you've had situations in your own book marketing experience where something is really skyrocketed, and you're like, really excited, right? So it's skyrocketed on Tuesday, and then by Friday everything is kind of back to where it was, again, that's gonna be that's gonna be noise, right? So let's break this down. So we have five signals that we're gonna talk about. Um so the first is uh reader response. So reviews and ratings, the quality of the reviews and ratings, right? Um so it's not just the number of the reviews, but the pattern, the average ranking, the wording, and the consistency, right?
SPEAKER_02:I look at all those things when authors first reach out to us, honestly, Penny.
SPEAKER_00:Right, exactly. The the the thing about it is though, too, is that reviews are far more readers are far more influenced by the review language than the star count once you pass the 10 to 15 reviews. Right. Right. So, you know, um are you getting so taking a look at the reviews, are you just getting like a lot of noise where you have a bunch of reviews that just say, good book, nice read. Like those are vague, potentially bought reviews, right? You know, unethically bought reviews for lack of a better, you know, for lack of a better way to to put to phrase that. Um and a lot of a number of retail studies have shown that um, you know, four point a 4.4 and a 4.7 average review rating converts better than even a straight five-point review rating on a book, which is interesting. And uh it's funny because USA Today, a whole bunch of years ago, also cited it a different in a you know, in a different study. So a lot of times we get authors who are just like, you know, I just want to get more reviews, I want to get more reviews, and I get it. The word chasing the review feels like a lifelong, um feels like a lifelong effort, right? But having a bunch of reviews on your retail page that are just like five star, great book, like that, first off, that's super vague. And it's not gonna help to drive a buy. But reviews that are consistently mentioning, like, what's the emotional payoff? What's the, you know, is it a slow burn? Is it a, is it twisty? Is it helpful? Did it change your life in some way? Did it help you elevate your career? Those are things that readers want to look for, that the readers look for in um, you know, it in a book. And I think that when your reviews are so, and I know we're gonna talk about this in another show too, but when your reviews aren't aligned with the book in some way. So I'm so I mentioned vague reviews like good book, nice read, et cetera, et cetera. But when your reviews aren't aligned with the book, like I thought I was getting or I was expecting more of there is a general alignment problem. And we typically so we typically don't panic over a single bad review. No, but we do pay attention when the same complaint keeps showing up multiple times. I mean, would you agree?
SPEAKER_02:Oh, yeah, absolutely. I mean, we you can't control someone's experience with your book. For sure. Yeah. You know, that is if if you're a control freak and that freaks and that bothers you, then stop what you're doing. Like because you really have to embrace that element of this if you're gonna make it in publishing, because you have to have a thick skin when it comes to reviews, because the reality is not everybody is going to resonate with your book. But if what they're saying is thoughtful and it shows that it's just a matter of personal opinion or preferences or things like that, there's nothing wrong with that. I've bought books that had some negative reviews because honestly, that person doesn't speak for me. And what they had an issue with, I don't. You know what I mean? When it comes to my reading preferences. But like you said, Penny, if if we're consistently seeing reviews that mention editing problems or transition problems, or that, you know what I mean, something seemed wrong with like production level, that's on you as the author. That is not their experience. That is quite literally there's something wrong with how the book is being presented to to the market, you know?
SPEAKER_00:Right, right. Exactly. Exactly. Um, okay, so signal number two.
SPEAKER_02:Signal number two. Okay, visibility and impressions. And this is great. I love this. I live in this space a lot. So, how often is your book being seen? So these are search impressions, category visibility, ad impressions, page visits. We focus on this so much. Like so much of our work focuses on what you could broadly refer to as the first impression, right, Penny? Yeah, absolutely. We are huge on ensuring our clients are making the best first impression possible. That is really what at the core, the foundation of all of our work, we want to see that happen before anything else happens, right? Like, because if that first impression isn't primed, you're wasting your time and money on a lot of other things, right? Right.
SPEAKER_00:Exactly. Exactly. And you know, impressions, I mean, look, anybody can get impressions. You can you can run ads on Facebook and get like a bazillion impressions, but without impressions without conversions. Impressions have no predictive value. True. I know a lot of people like to talk about impressions when it comes to ad sales, but impressions alone are just nothing.
SPEAKER_02:Yes, exactly. You don't want to send traffic somewhere where people aren't going to be impressed. End of story, you know? Right, exactly. Yeah. Because you don't get those people back more often than not. Like you may go and end up fixing some things, which is fabulous. We do that for a lot of authors as well. We talked earlier about how some people reach out to us once they start feeling stuck and we go, well, you know, we can actually make some really great suggestions and we can work on this with you. And that's fabulous. But unfortunately, the people that already engaged with their book at some point probably aren't going to come back, you know? So you're relying on, you know, future impressions. But the thing is, you can't sell. But I mean, again, so now that I've gone off on my rant on making sure you make a good first impression, you still can't sell a hidden book. So here we are back to the beginning where, you know, the visibility and those impressions do matter. Just make sure you're sending them somewhere they want to be. Um, but you know, good impressions with poor sales, like we were just talking about, Penny, that's a conversion problem. That means once they get to your book, they're not impressed. So there's a disconnect somewhere, you know, and I realize that's that's hard to imagine and you don't want to think about that being the case. But the sooner you kind of come to terms with that, the sooner you can fix it. So, but low impressions, but you have a good reader response. So you're getting thoughtful reviews, you know, you're getting some decent sales, but not great sales. You're like, why aren't they better? Everybody loves my book. I'm getting great reviews. That's a discoverability problem. That means you're not getting enough positive impressions with the right people. And, you know, honestly, if we had to choose, we love that because that's a much easier fix.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:And then, so here's an example: strong reviews, great cover, minimal impressions. That means you're just that's low visibility. So you want to tweak what's going on with your categories, your keywords, your ads. Maybe you're not running any Amazon ads at all. So that leaves a huge, you know, opportunity right there for some really smart strategic Amazon ads. When keywords and categories are cleaned up and you start, you know, those, those smart ads, again, I'm emphasizing smart for a reason. If anybody's caught on that I've said that a few times, just running ads and checking that off your list doesn't work, right, Penny? Right, exactly.
SPEAKER_00:Very, very much so.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. Yeah, it's a great way to spend a lot of money without getting anything done, you know. Yeah. You start doing some promos. You know, you do, you know, you run some Kindle limited time discounts, things like that anyway. But so once you're ready to convert, you start doing smart things to send quality traffic. And by quality, we usually refer to that as something that you can target versus a hope and a prayer, you know. So if there's any sort of targeting that you can do. So we're talking about genre fans, you know, people that are aligned for your topic, if you write in nonfiction, things like that. So we're we're really big fans of targeted impressions versus just impressions overall, because people can throw big numbers at you, and that sounds great because you're like, well, gosh, if 10,000 people see my book, think how many sales I'm gonna get, right? But if if none of those people are your people, it doesn't matter. Right.
SPEAKER_00:That's that's absolutely true.
SPEAKER_02:So impressions are definitely a quality over quantity thing sometimes as well. There is a happy medium in there.
SPEAKER_00:Well, and you know what's interesting is I know we talk a lot about Amazon and Amazon. Uh, we had an author early years ago. I don't know if you remember this, and this author wanted to put a billboard up on yes. Do you remember that? Do you remember that it wanted to put a billboard up somewhere in Los Angeles, right? So, okay, a lot of people, and she was like, Oh, people are gonna be stuck in traffic, this is gonna be awesome. I'm gonna get a lot of and I tried to talk her out of it. Like, this is really not a good use of your money, blah, blah, blah. Anyway, whatever. So the billboard happened and nothing happened.
SPEAKER_02:Right? I know. This is where we need one of those wah buttons, you know. Like, what is the sound exact?
SPEAKER_00:I know, I know. Wrong answer. So that I mean that that's it, like you got a ton of visibility, but the the visibility, you know, without sales isn't a success.
SPEAKER_02:Like, exactly. And again, at the beginning of this one, we talked about like the this can be some, these are some very simple but very smart fixes, you know. So keywords, this is a huge one. I can't tell you how many times, Penny, I have. I mean, week by week, month by month, the conversation that I have with clients, and it's I love seeing that light bulb moment when we discuss keywords and the fact that like what the keywords that really drive quality traffic are typically not, I'm just gonna throw it out there, typically not what your publisher or publishing service is going to recommend. It's probably not what you're going to come up with. And that's because it's less about your book and more about buyer behavior, buyer psychology. And that is really something you have to study and track long term. That's not something that you just show up and go, oh, I know what these are. It's not impossible, but it is like our focus is very much on connecting the dots between what readers are looking for and helping them find your book. And that is not as simple as throwing out, well, my book's about this, so this is what my keywords should be. That is not the right way to do it. Same thing with categories. You know, categories are tricky because, you know, I fully recognize that there are just some, there are we've worked with some amazing books, but just based on what they write about and what genre they're in, Amazon's just getting more and more competitive, you know? Yeah. So some genres just have very, very competitive categories. And there's a ton of books in every single category. But, you know, we make a point to dig out those unique elements of your book that help you get into less competitive categories. And what that does, it also introduces you to a more defined reader audience, which is very promising in terms of breaking through that noise, you know, getting in more niche markets where you are getting in front of people that are specifically looking for books very much like yours, versus a broader concept of I like thrillers. You know what I mean? That's that's a lot to wade through, right, Penny? Right, exactly.
SPEAKER_00:Exactly. And the thing, you know, what's interesting is we were developing this show, something that I that I realized is that authors often chase noise because noise is easier to chase than signals. Right. Truly, right? The instant gratification of it, right? And right, exactly. And what's really interesting is that once you start to once you start to see that once you really understand the difference between noise and and and and signal. You really understand. You really will start when you start to look at different things that are offered out there in the industry, you realize that a lot of it is noise. Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_02:And a lot of what's being sold is noise. Sorry. Now Amy just got snippy. No, it's very, it's it's it's really true. So I know. And we had a lovely email. Can I mention the email that I got recently? Yes. Let's talk about it. We had and again, I won't take up a bunch of everybody's time on this, but it just I it made me so happy because an author reached out and they were feeling frustrated because they've been doing the things, you know, like we've been talking about. They've been doing the things, they've been generating noise, they were feeling stuck. They had actually been reaching out to quite a few different groups and agencies trying to figure out who could give them a better path forward that felt more, you know, focused. And my response to this author was actually not about talking to them about how we can market their book and what kind of programs we have for them. My response was actually about their cover because it wasn't ideally aligned for what the for the topic they wrote in Penny. And their response was, thank you so much. You were the first person that has actually given me any sort of direct specific feedback about what's going on with my book right now. And that's exactly what I'm looking for. I want to know why what I'm doing isn't working and I want a better plan forward. And he said, I'm going to get my cover fixed up. And then I want to talk about next steps and what we can do to start fresh. And it was amazing. I know. And it's like, that is exactly what we're talking about here, right? Is focusing on ignoring the noise, right? And focusing on the signals and what actually works. And I think that is a reasonable lead-in to our next signal, right? Which is conversions.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah, yeah. Exactly. Yeah, it is. But but to your point, is that this guy was probably sold a lot of noise versus selling. Exactly.
SPEAKER_02:A bunch of people going, we could do this, we could do that. Big numbers, you know what I mean? Like flashy stuff that sounds very exciting and it makes you feel like, great, that'll do all the things.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:He was done, he was done hearing that.
SPEAKER_00:Which I think is which which it's unfortunate that he got to that point, but it's also fortunate for him that he did. Right. Yeah. Exactly. So it's unfortunate that he's been so discouraged that he's been sold a bunch of noise out there. And you know what's interesting is that years ago, and maybe there are companies out there that are still doing this, I don't know, but where they would write a press release and send it out to, you know, they'll fax it. And now I sound like I should get in my DeLorean and hop back to 1985. But they would, they would, they would, they would um send a press release out to like, you know, a thousand media people and oh my gosh, that's amazing. It's so amazing. And that's just a bunch of noise. Like it's it, it literally, I've never had a single author that has done that come back and say, that was one of the best uses of my money.
SPEAKER_02:Oh gosh, no, never. You know what I mean?
SPEAKER_00:So yeah, uh, so anyway, so signal three. All right, so conversion. Um so here's here's the reality on Amazon, which I realize we're all very hyper-focused on, a healthy conversion rate for the majority of genres falls somewhere between five and ten percent. Okay. So what that means is is that for all the traffic that you're sending to your retail page, five or ten percent, between five and ten percent of that traffic converts into a sale. Okay. Here's something else that to consider, right? If you improve your conversion rate by only one to two percentage points, you could that that could change your life. Isn't that crazy? That is so crazy. So when we think about so when, you know, if you're listening to the show now, like, oh my gosh, like I get it, I have a bunch of noise going on, like this sounds really hard. Don't think about this in terms of improv improving your conversion rate by, okay, so I want you to improve your conversion rate by 50%. No, no, no. I want you to think about improving your conversion rate between one to two percent. That can equate to doubling any kind of ad spend that you may be doing. Truly. Because the one to two, because the majority of the majority of authors aren't looking at improving, making these minor adjustments. And Amy and I, we have seen this over the years where you make like the guide that she, the emails that she just cited. Now, you know, changing up a book cover, that's a a big percentage point of a change. Like I get it. But sometimes we've seen authors that just change up uh small pieces of their book description and uh making those kinds of minor changes can equate to the one to two percent that you know that that you that you should really shoot for. So um so noise, okay, so conversion rate noise. All right, when a lot of times authors will come to me after they've done, they've been running Amazon ads for a while, or any kind of ad, right? And they are celebrating this really high click-through rate. People are clicking, my ad must be great, they're clicking through, but they're not blaming, they're not that nobody's buying their book, and so they're blaming Amazon, right? Instead of the retail page, the way, you know, that the way the retail page looks. Here's the other thing though, too. If you have a if you have a really high click-through rate on your book, and so you're sending people from Amazon and you're sending them Facebook or wherever, and they're clicking over to your page and they're not buying the book, that tells Amazon that your book is not relevant to the category slash keywords, and it impacts your overall visibility for your book. Because Amazon wants to sell something and they don't care if it's your book or your neighbors. So if you're sending a lot of traffic to the to that page, it also I'll tell you something too. If you are sending a ton of traffic to your retail page and you're running Amazon ads, your ads and nobody's buying your book, your ads are gonna cost more because Amazon's like, well, Joe over there with his book and he's sending all these this traffic, like they're not gonna keep so you know, your 50 cent bid went now went up to five dollars because they're like, Well, you're gonna have to pay for that exposure because your book's not selling anyway, and so we're at least gonna make some more money off of that. And that's kind of how Amazon writes, you know what I mean? It's very diabolical, it's very diabolical, right? So the the the the conversion conversion is a signal, right? The noise is literally just I have so many people going to my retail page, and I'm super excited, and everything is awesome, and it actually really isn't awesome, right? So things that can make and we talk about the I I I led with this kind of talking about the one to two percent change, right? So think about your think about your book cover, obviously. That's the first thing. Is your book sitting in the right genre? Okay, that can be a that could be a one percent change if you're just you know, if you're changing your if you're shifting into a better genre for your book, right? Don't put your book in a genre that you think it should be in. Put it in a genre that it actually blocks.
SPEAKER_01:Right.
SPEAKER_00:Sorry that I have to say this. Six years of this show. What we what we see it all the time, right? Yeah, absolutely. You know? Um, cover, obviously, okay, cover I mentioned, title, subtitle. All of it has to match your reader expectations. I taught a class a couple of weeks ago and I said, Look, I don't care what you like, I don't care what you don't like, doesn't matter. The only thing that matters in this whole conversation is your reader. That's it, right? You have write for your reader, your description has to be written for your reader, your, you know, um, your subtitle, your title, all the things, all of that has to be, you know, with your reader in mind. The other piece of it though, too, is is that, and this is where authors really love to bury the lead. All your social proof, so your blurbs, your awards, your review quotes, lead with that. Put that at the top of your your retail description, your book description on Amazon, right? Um and and this is oftentimes where we find the quickest wins. Because authors are, you know, you're bearing the lead, your book description isn't tight enough, blah, blah. Maybe your cover is great, but your book description kind of leaves a lot to be desired. Um, this is this is the one, this is the one to two percent. I mean, this is where we see a lot of these things that can potentially change your life.
SPEAKER_02:Well, and I love how you mentioned it's all about the reader penny, because I have another great real life example that happened recently. And again, to the point where letting everybody know, and this is not to make you all feel inadequate or uncomfortable, but it is so easy to get too close to your own work.
unknown:Oh my gosh.
SPEAKER_02:To be objective about a lot of this. So if you're feeling frustrated, you know, keep in mind that a lot of it could be because you're too close to your own work and be willing to go beyond that because we had a client very recently that after we did, you know, you mentioned we were talking about keywords, categories, all these things. We had a client very recently that after we did some of our keyword and category research, made our recommendations, was really pushing back on like, no, I'm I'm not that, I'm this, I'm not that, I'm this. Like, I'm very, and it's like, hey, you know, these are our professional recommendations. This is your book, though. You know what I mean? So, but they ended up winning an award for a category that we had recommended that they insisted they didn't want to be in. That's amazing. Yes, and they were like, okay, we give in, like, go and they fully recognize they're like, all right, we get it now. Like, yeah, they fully owned the irony of all of that, but it's true, it's one of those things that obviously, you know, because they entered into a very genre-specific award system. And obviously, these are people that know the genre, like they are into it. If they are handing out awards for different subgenres within a major genre, they know what people are looking for and they know the difference of what readers are seeking out depending on which subgenre they're into anyway. But it was amazing and it it felt good both ways, and uh, it was a great moment with the client, too, because it was it was a learning moment, you know? Yeah, yeah, you get to post your own work and you think one thing, but that doesn't mean that is how it is being perceived on the retail side and how it fits into the current landscape of what's out there, right? Because that matters too.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, exactly. And you know, at the end of the day, look, people, you know, a lot of times authors, you know, the when when I do a when I have a conversation with them and I'll ask them what are they doing to to promote their book, they'll say, Well, I'm running ads on Facebook. And the but the rest has kind of fallen by the wayside, right? Like I've the nothing's really been done with the retail page, yada, yada, yada. Ads don't sell books, product pages do. Yeah. Right. At the end of the day, that is that is it. And you've got to work it. And that's one of the reasons why. And you can go back through some of the shows and that we did in 2025. We talk a lot about aligning yourself with a publisher who's willing to work with you on your retail page, who is willing to make, you know, don't get sorry, I'm not gonna go down this this tangent too long, but do not work with a publisher that is gonna like that doesn't give you any kind of input in terms of terms of the retail price of the book or what's on your retail page. Because we've had authors who show up with books who have, you know, the book is priced at like 60 bucks.
SPEAKER_01:Right.
SPEAKER_00:You know, and you can't, there's literally nothing that you can do to fix that. There is no amount of anything that you can do to fix that. So exactly.
SPEAKER_02:And same for publishing services. I think a lot of authors, and while now I'm you know, adding on to Penny's not rant, we're just piling on on this topic. It's worth it because I think a lot of authors feel that if they use a publishing service, they have a lot of autonomy still. And while you may technically have more autonomy or feel like you do versus going through a publisher, if you use a publishing service, you are still at the mercy of their systems. Yeah, for sure. A lot of times they are using their systems to connect your book with Amazon and other retailers and things like that. So it's still an important question to ask. So even if you're using a serve, a publishing service where you feel like you're doing most of the legwork, but they're just connecting the dots for you, you still want to double check at what you do and don't have access to and how it matches up with what you what Amazon offers, because that happens a lot too, where somebody will use a publishing service and they basically offer half the features that Amazon does, and they you're basically SOL because they like, well, you used our system and our system doesn't, you know, play nice with Amazon in these three areas. So you just don't get those features. It's like what mind numbing.
SPEAKER_00:Right. I know. Yeah. It's really it it's it's amazing. Anyway, now that we've gone down that, obviously we have strong as all of you know who have been listening for a while, we have strong feelings about the great many things.
SPEAKER_02:But I love this next one. I love this next one. Reader. Yeah, reader retention and series backlist behavior. So this is huge because long-term author success isn't about one book launch. As much as it's very exciting to launch a book, especially as a debut author, some real talk here, it's really about your lifetime reader value and how many people come back to you for your next books. I realize some of you listening, or maybe you have one book in you. It's a very specific project that you're doing. Fine, this is not for you.
SPEAKER_00:But for everybody else, skip to the next segment.
SPEAKER_02:Sorry. Yeah, do the little fast forward button. But for everybody else listening that does plan to release more than one book, it really does matter. So that's book one to book two. If you write a series, it's your standalone book to your next standalone book. You know, and all this happens, gets fed through not just producing good products and having everything that we've said to, you know, to up until this point, having a great retail page, generating quality impressions. What also matters is what you're doing in between releases. So building your email list, building your social following and your content creation, whether that's again through a newsletter, through a blog, through social. There's so many different ways to do it. We've done tons of shows on all the different ways. So we won't, we won't go into that right now. But when readers stick with you across multiple books, your ROI improves dramatically. And that's a very tough conversation that we have to have with authors a lot. You know, new authors that have released a book that have spent a bunch of money to get their author business literally off the ground. You know, they took this huge step, right? To write a book, to publish their first book. And it's tough when it's like, wow, you know, there's a lot of front-end investment. Even if you're doing it on a shoestring budget, it is still a pretty decent front-end investment to launch an author career. You know, and and it just like, but the thing is, it shouldn't be that surprising because we say it all the time, but launching an author career is very similar to starting any other small business. Hopefully it turns into a big business. But you know, right. Like let's start realistically. But the reality is anybody that starts a business puts more in upfront. And if you do all the right things, it starts coming back to you, right? Yeah. Doing all the right things. Yeah, you know, it's like it, it's it's it's simple math, but it's sometimes it's a tough hill to swallow sometimes because it can feel like an uphill battle for a while. But again, that's why we do this podcast. Doing the right things, avoiding some of the missteps that a lot of authors have gone through before makes a huge difference. Uh, these are small tweaks too. I love that we have so many examples, Penny, that are relatively easy to implement. You know, we're not talking about big sweeping, you know, um, if you liked this next, or if you like this, read this next. Like you have to tell people how to engage with you. And I realize it sounds very weird, but people don't like to have to make a lot of decisions when they're shopping, when they're looking for their next book. They want something that seems like a sure thing. So own it. Sound confident in your work. You know, so if you like this title, you definitely want to read my next title. Talk about it. This there's a lot you can do with your Amazon Author Central content in this regard, just as a like a little, you know, a little tip there. Um series branding, also very important. We talk about this a lot when authors will come to us and they've released a few books and they're like, I don't know what's going on. It feels a little dead in the water. A lot of times we will notice that covers are not consistent. You know, the way titles and subtitles are treated, even the font styles are there's no consistency or cohesion to the books. And that's a big problem for shoppers, for consumers, right, Penny? Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, it doesn't make sense in their brain. Well, and that's where I think that I think a lot of authors, so we talk a lot about the letter in the back of the book, right? And I've taught this in classes. We experimented on this with an author, Christina George, a bunch of years ago, or a letter that I actually wrote in the back for the book. And that's a little put this in your book. And using the letters, the letter to help convert readers to fans, to super fans, to reviews to all the things, right? So you have to really use, so you have to really tell readers what you want them to do. So the letter in the back of the book, like Amy mentioned, so at a clear, like if you like this, read this next. You really have to, you have to make it because there's so much stuff that gets thrown at us at any given time. Like, unless you're just selling to your mom and your family, they're probably gonna invest more time in you. Like the average reader is not going to like, oh, is this part of a series? This looks really different. Is this part like they're not gonna spend that kind of time, they're gonna move on to the next thing.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, they're gonna move on to the easy decision.
SPEAKER_00:They're gonna move, yeah, they're gonna move on. So you have to be that this is why we always say details matter to readers. Don't be a great box on Amazon, your picture on Amazon. I mean, you're everything has to feel like we have a branding episode, I know, coming up, coming up in a few weeks, a couple weeks, I think, but um you really have to make it, you have to connect the dots for them. Yes, and this has nothing to do with the intelligent intelligence of your reader at all. It's just that we don't want to have to figure stuff out.
SPEAKER_02:No, everybody listening has been shopping online before, and think how easy it is to go like, okay, this is what I went here for. Oh, but then there's this, oh, and there's this other thing, but this one has better reviews. Maybe I want to look at this one instead. Or you know what I mean, and especially on Amazon where they try to distract you intentionally because somehow they figured out that that sells more things.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, exactly. Like, oh, you don't really want yeah, you don't really want this because this is on prime sale and but and like the they were I would love to see and I'm sure I would love to see the statistics on how many people, how long. So we know that on an average website, we spend like one fiftieth of a second deciding if we want to stay there or if we don't. But I bet you the Amazon number is a lot lower. Sorry, did I make this podcast just totally depressing right now? But seriously, I bet that number is really, and I bet it's lower because we're, you know, a lot of times we're on our phones and there's stuff, other stuff happening, and there's distracting things that Amazon posts on there. No, I think you'd rather have this, whatever. I think that number is probably much lower. Oh, yeah, for sure. You know, so anyway, so all that to say, um, show up with your A game.
SPEAKER_02:Right. Exactly. And now I love that. Okay, so we've talked about response, visibility, conversions, retention. The fifth signal is a little different and it's about author behavior. So if you've kind of been tuning in and out as we go on our rants, this is when you really want to dial in.
SPEAKER_00:Right. So and you know, I love the notes. So we both we we both make notes in the show notes, right? Like adding our own kind of thing, depending on which segment that we're taking. So consistent author activity. Amy added a little note in there, not random hustle, which is something so it's such an Amy thing that she would say. So basically, and you know, people have asked me for years, like, okay, so we've been around for 25 years. Like, what is the secret of our success? First off, we do really good work. We have awesome people. I'm so fortunate in that way. But we're very consistent in what we do to promote the company. And and the difference between success and failure not only is focus and all the things that we've talked about so far in the show, but is consistency. So are you just consistent about doing, you know, a few smart smart things, or are you consistent, you know, and consistent marketing efforts outperform sporadic effort, even at a lower intensity. So a lot of times authors are just like, I'm doing all these things, I'm doing all this stuff. And then like on they start on Monday. And you know, the new the new year is kind of the time for that. Like, okay, January, man, I am gonna hit the ground running. I'm gonna do all 50 things this week. It's gonna be really awesome. And by week two, they're like, now I'm just tired because you know, who can keep who can keep up with that, right? But uh consistency, even at a lower intensity, will beat it consistency beats uh crazy lots of noise every single time. In fact, you know what's interesting is so when we when I was first in business, and this is I say I because this pre-Amy, I had a weekly newsletter. Sorry, now she's gonna she's gonna pass out. So you're gonna hear a thud, everybody listening. So we we had a weekly newsletter and a weekly newsletter, I blogged weekly. We did all this and we did it weekly, right? What we found out quickly is that a lot of that was noise, even though it was helpful information, it was very noisy, right? And so we still we're still consistent, we still have the blog, we still have the newsletter, now we have layered the podcast on top of that, but we reduced the amount of time. Now the newsletter goes out once a month, right? The blog happens. Uh so we have a blog that posts on Friday, which is always our podcast wrap-up, and then we have two Tuesday posts. So we've lowered the consistency, we've lowered, we've lowered how many times we we post, we've lowered the noise, we stay consistent and we've upped the value and we've upped the quality. And I think if that's your only takeaway from this fifth segment, that that really should be it, right? Exactly. Even like people want, so this is the thing, right? And I I know that I I know if you've listened for a while, I know I rag a lot on TikTok, like I get it. But TikTok has amplified the noise to a to a great degree. And some people go viral on TikTok and they do amazing and they get all kinds of like movie deals and life is awesome. But I'll tell you something too. So we hear these stories and we're like, I want to do that, I want to put up viral. But there's a book published every eight seconds. So if the majority of authors who were on TikTok were going viral and getting movie deals, that's literally all we would hear every single day. But I mean, when you think about it, like when you think about the numbers, right? When you think like that's literally the only thing that the news would be able to report on, and that would be an awesome world. I just have to say, like, that would be an awesome world. The truth is, is that just doesn't happen, right? Viral posts do happen, but a lot of times they happen kind of in a vacuum because they don't really have any sales lift. Okay. And I've actually had posts, you know, this is so ridiculous. I've had posts on my personal page that will just go like viral, where I'm showing, I'm taking a screen, a personal Facebook page, I should say. I'm taking a screenshot and sending it to Amy, and it's been shared over like a thousand times. I don't see any sales lift with that. Like people just like to share stuff, right? Again, sometimes, you know, sometimes it does get it, it may awesome things happen. And we know the success stories, and those are great, and we aspire to those. But try, you know, if you're listening to this and you're on every platform and you're doing all the things and you're just exhausted, try pulling back, pull back and instead figure out something that is more that you can that is easier to repeat so that you can up your consistency. I would rather see y'all listening up your consistency rather than throwing out more more noise. So fewer tactics executed well. Random hustle feels really productive, but it's not. Strategic repetition is actually way more productive.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, absolutely. And so I want to do a quick recap of the five signals because we're Oh, go for it. Yes, do it. We've covered so much, and I want to point out that you can't just do one of these correctly. You know, it's not going to completely cover you. You can't compensate, you know, for one or the other. Like you really have to focus on all of these. And it doesn't mean you have to do all of them perfect as soon as the show is over. I get it. You really want to focus, make sure that you are being realistic and honest with yourself about how you're performing in these different areas because it really does matter. And they all, you know, again, it's cumulative. So again, if you're seeing good reviews, but maybe sluggish sales, and you're like, what? Clearly, people like this book. So what is going on? That's a discoverability issue. So you need to work on your discoverability. If you're doing a lot and making a lot of noise, but you're not converting anybody, you know, so you're not really selling books, but you're putting in a lot of effort to get your book, quote unquote, out there, it's likely a packaging or a pitch issue. So there's a disconnect in your effort with what they are seeing when they get to your book page. So that needs to be looked at. Like, what are they not getting when they land there that is leading them to not click by? Right. Right. So, and then decent sales on book one with no read through. So this is a series or multi-book author issue. But if you, you know, if book one did great and things immediately fell off, or if you are, if you write standalone books and, you know, your first couple of books were okay, but your next ones are just dead in the water. And you're like, what is going on? Clearly, this is a retention issue. You're losing people after they read the one book. And that that that is fixable too, you know, but you have to work on what you're doing to retain readers from book to book. And then, you know, Penny's point, crazy, messy activity, inconsistent results, kind of throwing things at the wall to see what sticks. That is obviously a strategy and a consistency issue. All of these things are fixable. Discoverability, how your retail page is packaged, retention, your consistency, these are all very much within your control, which is awesome. Because if we did a whole show on things you couldn't control, you can go rock in a corner.
SPEAKER_00:But indeed, yes.
SPEAKER_02:Fortunately, everything we've covered so far is within your control.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, absolutely. And that's the thing, though, too, is that you know when authors stop chasing noise, momentum gets quieter and more powerful. And I think if we can give you any advice for the new year, it would be to stop chasing the noise. Because the noise will, you know, the noise feels like it's really just super exciting, but it's not. And it's, you know, we want part of the reason why we developed the show path for this year that we did is because we really want to take this to kick off, you know, with a very strong series. Obviously, hopefully every month we'll do that, but we wanted to kick this off with some some directional focus, right? Um in order to get you from where you are now to where you want to be. And remember, again, small targeted tweaks in even one signal can change, even though they all matter, as Amy pointed out, they all matter. But even, you know, small tweaks can can really dramatically change your results. So don't think like you have to completely burn everything to the ground and start over. Thanks, Amy and Penny. You just started my year off. Um, well, listen, we really hope that you have enjoyed this first episode. Happy New Year, everybody. We're so excited to be here. And we hope that you had a really great holiday season and you're all ready to kind of, you know, get back at it and and dive in. And we have a whole series of really exciting um and cool shows coming up for January that we hope that you'll listen to. Want to remind you again, we love reviews wherever you listen to podcasts. Text the word podcast to 888-402-8940 and you can talk, talk, speak with us directly. We've gotten some show ideas, we've gotten some show feedback, um, just all the things we'd love to hear from you. These shows are created for you to help you guys, to help you guys succeed. So we'll see you next week. Bye bye.
