Publicity Doesn’t Sell Books: What Authors Get Wrong (and What Works Instead)

Publicity feels like the breakthrough moment every author is chasing—but most big interviews, features, and media hits don’t translate into book sales the way you expect. In many cases, they don’t move the needle at all.

In this episode, we unpack what publicity really is—TV, radio, magazines, online media—and why it’s rarely a direct path to sales. The core problem is simple: you’re often putting your book in front of a cold audience with no reason to act right now. Visibility without context, trust, or repetition doesn’t convert.

We break down the “glamorous” marketing choices authors make that sound impressive but quietly underperform, and then shift into a more effective strategy.

The key is reframing publicity as an asset, not an outcome.

When used correctly, media coverage becomes a long-term marketing tool—something you can leverage across your website, media page, Amazon presence, and ongoing promotion. We talk through how to extract value from every feature: pulling quotes, building credibility, reinforcing your positioning, and creating repeat exposure so readers recognize you later and feel more confident buying. Because for books, familiarity isn’t optional—it’s what reduces perceived risk and drives decisions.

We also tackle a listener question on marketing books that require deeper trust—topics like grief, caregiving, and spiritual struggle. These readers aren’t casually browsing; they’re actively looking for guidance and reassurance. That means your publicity and marketing need to clearly communicate authority, experience, and proof. We show you how to position those “receipts” so your visibility actually leads somewhere.

If you’ve ever landed a great interview and wondered why it didn’t translate into sales—or you’re trying to make your publicity work harder for you—this episode gives you a more strategic framework.

Subscribe, share it with an author who’s chasing publicity, and stay tuned—because next, we’ll break down how to actually land the right podcast interviews in the first place.

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Transcript

What Publicity Really Is

SPEAKER_00 0:02

Hello and welcome back to the Book Marketing Tips and Author Success Podcast. This is Penny Sansaverry and Amy Cornell. And we I think this is a show. So, Amy, this show was your idea. I think the show is one that is long overdue. Do you want to give us a little bit of framework of what we're talking about today?

SPEAKER_01 0:21

Yeah, we want to talk about publicity. And we want to talk about what it is and how it can work for you if you approach it correctly. Because I think that's the biggest problem that we see is that authors think of publicity as one thing when in reality it's not going to do the work you want it to unless you're realistic about how to use it and you're more strategic. It's much more than just that big breakout moment, you know?

Why Publicity Rarely Drives Sales

SPEAKER_00 0:49

Right. And I think one of the things that we see a lot in with authors who come to us saying, I really want to be on whatever big morning show or whatever it is, is that a lot of times they're using that. So if you're looking at marketing like a funnel, they're using that as a top of funnel kind of approach. Like that's the first, that's that's the first thing that I'm gonna lead with in my book marketing. And unless you have a, unless you already have a, you know, you're an established author, you're an established brand, people know who you are. For all the reasons that we're gonna unpack in this episode, that generally, you know, that generally doesn't work. The first thing is that we that we want to that I think is worth talking about is, and part of the reason why authors lead with publicity a lot of times is because they think that it is a direct link to book sales. And I am here to tell you, 25 years, I'm telling you right now, that is not always the case. In fact, there is a statistic out one that, and this was something that I shared with Amy in the green room, but it's still, every time I say it, I'm just like, oh my gosh, this just makes me it, it's really, it's it's it's a bit a bit of reality. Market research consistently shows that only one to two percent of cold audiences convert immediately. Right. And what that means is, and that's part of the reason why I said that a lot of times authors use this as top of funnel as opposed to like, okay, well, now I have a brand and people know who I am, and yada, yada, yada. And, you know, and then then that, you know, they have that expectation of sales, which then, you know, potentially maybe a little bit better than the author who just launched their book yesterday. Um, and you know, expecting, you know, and this apparently the show we should have just named the show the Buzzkill Show, because that's is how we're obviously leaning off all the things. But um, you know, when they expect authors expect that anything uh, you know, related to television or radio or online media is gonna lead to an immediate sales spike. And just to be clear, Amy, I mean, I think we should sort of reframe when we're talking about publicity, we are really talking about broadcast media, radio, television, magazines, potentially, you know, magazines, although magazines people tend to sit with a little bit longer. So, you know, um uh online media as well, you know, can fall kind of into this bucket. But a lot of times when authors say that they want publicity. And Amy, you see this a lot on, you know, on the front end, probably more than I do. The majority of them, what they're talking about is they're talking about, I want to be on the Today Show or I want to be on some television show, something like that. I want to be on the view, just for an example, right? Right.

SPEAKER_01 3:44

They're talking big, big audiences.

SPEAKER_00 3:48

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And big audiences, I mean, we talked about this in the greener too, big audiences don't necessarily like they don't, there's not necessarily a a blip that correlates with that.

Glamour Marketing Gone Wrong

SPEAKER_01 4:01

No, definitely not. I mean, a lot of times, like Penny's, I mean, that statistic blows my mind. And so often, you know what's tricky about it, especially for authors, especially for books, is that you're inserting yourself into situations where people aren't necessarily looking to discover books. And we are so over-stimulated nowadays. There is so much getting thrown at us that just inserting yourself into conversations where it's not natural, where it's not expected, and that's not why people show up there, you know, rarely has the kind of return that most people expect it to.

SPEAKER_00 4:44

Right, exactly. In fact, um so years ago we had an author who was on Oprah, and the book was um, the book was available for purchase, and the author sold a hundred books. 100 books from being on the show. And uh when Oprah had her show, I mean, that was always like, oh, I gotta get on Oprah. I remember one time at Book Expo America, uh, a bunch of us publicists had like this cocktail party celebrating her last show because we didn't have to hear anymore. I want to be on Oprah. Except we do hear that all the time. We used to hear that remember, I mean, you she, you know, 15 years ago when you started, she still had her show. Um, we used to hear that all the time.

SPEAKER_01 5:28

So and then people asked for it for another 10 years, not realizing she was no longer on the air.

SPEAKER_00 5:34

I had somebody ask me that last week. I'm like, um, I mean, I realize she does some, she does some shows on the auction network and whatnot, but um, for the most part, yeah, there's no show. Right.

SPEAKER_01 5:43

She's not giving out cars anymore. Right. Car for you, car for you. Right. And then we've had other examples too, which sound like amazing opportunities. We've had clients that have purchased space in Times Square.

SPEAKER_00 5:55

Oh, this, I'm sorry.

SPEAKER_01 5:57

Against our recommendations, you know, and and we are always very honest with people. We don't say don't do this, but but but spend all your money with us. That is not, there's no ego involved in that. We legitimately respond based on what is going to convert and what really makes sense. And so we said, full stop, this is this is not what you need to be doing. And they did it anyway. And we've had more than a handful of authors purchase like big advertising space like this. And not once has anybody come back to tell us how great it was and how well it worked out. Yeah. And how many books they sold. Yeah. And I would assume they would love to do that because we're like, no, that's not a great idea. That's really shouldn't where you be where you shouldn't be spending your time and your investment and things like that. So I'm sure they would have loved to tell us how wrong we were. And not once has anybody come back to do that.

SPEAKER_00 6:48

Yeah. I the the the whole Times Square thing, just I remember when that when, and like you said, we've had a few authors who've done that. That just sends that that literally just sends me over the edge. Like, who's in time? Like the Times Square. So think about the think about your audience in Times Square. Like, sorry, but your audience is just like there are a bunch of tourists, there's a bunch of people, and frankly, Times Square, like, does anybody pay attention to the billboards in Times Square? Sorry. You know what I mean? I mean, it just sounds really glamorous. It sounds, I mean, it's such an you know what I mean. Don't don't buy for your ego, guys. Listen, do not buy for your ego. There's another example, and this is actually, I think, before we started working together, I had an author who decided that they wanted to buy an ad, a movie theater ad. And and at that time, I mean, this is maybe 18 years ago. At that time, it was like it was a lot of money. I mean, it was a small theater, but it was a major release, and I think it was like$5,000 or something for the ad to run just one time. Hello. It wasn't running like consistently for all of the showings, but there was no way to like who's sitting in a movie theater thinking, like, you're thinking about popcorn and you're thinking about the movie, and you're thinking, you know what I mean?

Reframing Publicity As An Asset

SPEAKER_01 8:04

Like, no, that's and this is long before QR codes or anything like that. So I just imagine like they're expecting a bunch of people to like get their handbags out and dig for their dig for their notepad with their tiny flashlight and write this down. Like, nope, what? No. Yeah. Like it's not gonna happen. I mean, obviously, different age, but still, and I realize it sounds like we're ragging on this, but the real but the reason is because publicity, the right kind of publicity, and if you're put inserting yourself into the right conversations that actually make sense for your audience and then leveraging that, that actually works. So that is really why, you know, we're here.

SPEAKER_00 8:43

It is, and you know, publicity itself doesn't sell the book, it makes the reader more likely to say yes when they see it again. So, one of the things that we want to anchor to, as now we've had we've had our fun. So that was really fun. That was eight minutes of like Amy and Penny talking about all the crazy things we've seen. But anchoring publicity to things that are realistic. So there's nothing wrong with publicity. I don't like publicity when a book first launches, unless the author starts off with like a lot of you know credibility because it's because there's just so much competition and it's really, really hard to place them. But publicity can give you credibility, discoverability, content, social proof, yeah. All of those things that, you know, really, and you know, like as seen on kind of like when you see those, I mean, that's impressive, right?

SPEAKER_01 9:33

Right. And I like I like the idea of reframing publicity as an asset and not an outcome. Yes, yes, right. It's something to it's something to use. It's not a goal, you know. Yeah, it is not an end result, it's something that you need to utilize, it's a tool, right?

SPEAKER_00 9:50

Right, right, exactly. And you know, nonfiction authors, I mean, obviously it's kind of it's it's it feels like a much easier alignment than fiction authors, but you know, fiction authors, I've done fiction authors to do very well with, you know, big national publicity. It's a little bit harder to get if you've written fiction. I mean, that's why you really have to, you know, you have to build, you have to, you know, already be building awareness again. Right. You know, not this is not a top-of-funnel kind of idea, but you know, um anything to me, anything that helps you increase discoverability, whether you're fiction or nonfiction, or you've written poetry or whatever. Anything that helps you increase discoverability is important.

SPEAKER_01 10:32

I agree. And I think to your point, Penny, how you said you don't love it to kick off. And I think that makes so much sense, especially for fiction. You know, yeah, publicity is not something you go after with your debut novel. You know what I mean? It's it's something you build toward if you're making smart strategic choices and paying attention to your brand along the way, then it's absolutely something that you can consider. And for nonfiction, you know, we've done plenty of shows about it, but it it really depends on what you're bringing to the table, what you you have access to and what conversations you insert yourself into.

SPEAKER_00 11:04

Yeah, exactly. Um, do you want to talk a little bit about?

SPEAKER_01 11:08

I mean, I know we've kind of already addressed why publicity doesn't necessarily but I think I mean, let's cut away all of our snarky comments like you said. Yeah, I know.

SPEAKER_00 11:17

We have our funny, I mean, now we have to put them.

The Missing Next Step Problem

SPEAKER_01 11:21

But the reality is, you know, and Penny said this at one point, there's really no clear next step for the audience with publicity for a book. Yes, a lot of the times. You know what I mean? It's like you're there, they go, okay, and then they move on with their life. You know, and there's no follow-up system with publicity. Like there's no email, there's no content, there's no retargeting happening. I mean, even Amazon, for as much as we rag on Amazon, is working harder for you than publicity will, because Amazon at least sends follow-up emails when people land on your book page. Like I've been sharing those with our clients, Penny, because we've been, you know, we follow all of our clients. And I've been sharing because I think most authors don't realize what Amazon does behind the scenes for targeting and selling. And it's actually very cool. Um, but so you don't get that with publicity. Right. You know, and also, oh, go ahead.

SPEAKER_00 12:08

No, no, no. I just want to, I I sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt you, but I just want to inter interject. One of the biggest reasons that publicity fails is because it's isolated. Yes. Right. So anyway, sorry, go on. But I just I that just kind of came to mind. I wanted to jump in there. No, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 12:24

Like to your point, it's completely disconnected from the rest of everything else that you're doing. You know, it's just kind of out there, and there's no direct, like we said, there's no direct next step for the audience to take. And realistically, like we've talked about on this show and other shows, everything is distracting, you know. So the chances of somebody, you know, you you have publicity, you have some coverage, you have this big ad somewhere, you've nailed this big interview, but they don't do anything with it because that is not why they're there. You know what I mean? Again, it's, I think a lot of publicity, a lot of big publicity, a lot of very expensive publicity sounds really great, but again, it really is like inserting yourself into a conversation you had no business being in in the first place.

SPEAKER_00 13:14

That's very, very true. And I think, you know, if you look at the typical buyer behavior, so they see it, they forget it, they see it again, they recognize it, they consider it, they see it again, and then maybe they'll buy it. Right. And that's part of the reason why. And when authors do the go-to of I want to be on public, you know, I want to be on national television, I just want publicity, that's where it starts to become isolated. And you're basically just kicking the entire buyer journey to the curb and forgetting that that even exists when that is in fact how you're actually going to sell books. Yes. You know, exactly. Um, so did we, did we, did we finish up? Did we cover everything in that in terms of um yeah?

SPEAKER_01 13:56

I think we just, you know, I think we the important part is that y'all understand like this is not just us saying, like, it's really hard to get because you're not special enough. That's not it. It's really just most most of the time, it's just not designed for the way book discovery happens and the way authors really end up reaching people and converting people.

Leverage Every Feature You Get

SPEAKER_00 14:17

Right, exactly. And I think this next segment, like how to how to actually use publicity. We've done a lot of shows on this, so we're not gonna spend a huge amount of time on this in particular, but I think that any, and you know what, this is not just how to use publicity. This is how to use anything that you get. Right. You want to make sure that you add every everything, obviously, to your websites, pull quotes, as seen in, you know, on your book or on your Amazon page or whatever. Um, and the thing about it is though, too, we're gonna do, we have a show coming up on local media, why local media is important. I'm actually, I finished my book on, you know, mark, you know, local media, local marketing for authors, and that's not actually what it's called. But um these are um these are these are all stepping stones, right? Every that's one of the reasons why you never want to turn down a you know an interview. You never want to turn down an opportunity because everything builds on everything else, right? But every time that you're doing any kind of a segment, um use it, share it, use it, put it on your website, put it on your media room, um, and just make sure that you are maximizing every single opportunity that's come to you. I don't care if you were on the Today Show or if you were on like good morning, uh, you know, Wichita, like everything, absolutely everything, everything matters and everything has to be reused. Because it's really, you know, it's eye candy, right? I mean, it when you go to somebody's media room and you see a lot of stuff on there, you think, oh wow, this author's, you know, been featured in a lot of places. I mean, you may not even know half the shows that this author has been on or publications or whatever, but it it it helps you to leverage, to leverage it to get, you know, more visibility.

SPEAKER_01 16:09

Exactly. Like we've said it before, it I think the bare minimum, you should find three other ways to use it. And usually there's many more than three. But I've been having a lot of those conversations with our clients lately, which on one hand is awesome because we're having clients write us and go, I got this or I got that, or this award came through and all these things, and they're letting us know like, how can, you know, can you guys use it? And just based on what we do, and depending on what it is, I mean, there's only so many ways that we can, but it's amazing how many authors if these great things happen and they're not pre-programmed to immediately add it to their website or get it added to their Amazon page, you know what I mean, or to share it on social media. And it's like that needs to kind of, you need to reframe anything, like Penny said, anything positive that happens, every little win. You know, you should have a short list, put that reminder on your desk of the top, you know, five things you need to update immediately. And then the next five things that you can do with it in the near future, you know.

Compounding Exposure Builds Trust

SPEAKER_00 17:12

Yeah, exactly. And I would say, and again, I would say, you know, we've done a ton of shows on this. Use and reuse every, you know, make sure that you are maximizing every single feature. Not only is it a great way to enhance and build your, you know, build your build your brand, build your author brand and get out there and show people that people are interested in your book. People like what other people like. So again, even if they don't, if they've never watched Good Morning Wichita or whatever, doesn't matter. People like what other people like. So you definitely want to expand on that. Um, okay, so the compounding effect, this is a really, this is a really big deal. And I and I and I really want to share this. You know, if you want to kick this off, because I think that we, as authors, authors oftentimes overlook the compounding effect of all of this stuff. And that's part of the reason why when an author comes to us and says, I just want to do publicity, I just want to hire you to like we never do that. Just spoiler alert, if you come to Amy and you say, I just want to do publicity, like, mmm, that's yeah, literally never gonna happen. The compounding effect of all of this, which is why I mentioned early on in the show, if you want to do publicity, great. I think that's awesome. That's an awesome goal. Start compounding other things, build on that, because generally speaking, these major morning shows are not gonna put a green author on. And I don't mean absolutely not, right? I mean, I don't mean an author that's necessarily writing about, you know, environmental stuff. That's not what I mean when I say green. I mean an author who has literally no experience. Um, Amy, you want to talk talk us to? I hope I haven't like stomped all over all your talking points. But anyway, do you want to do sorry?

SPEAKER_01 19:00

I did. No, it's no, but it's very true. One feature will rarely move the needle, you know. Like circle back to our opening chuckles about all the things. Like I know. There are great stories. Right. So don't look at publicity as your chance at a breakout moment where you get to skip the line and skip all these other things that we talk about on these shows incessantly that everybody should be doing. Like publicity is not like it's not the cheat code for that, right? Right, exactly. You really have to think of it as an asset to use. And it it basically, like Penny said, it gives you credibility. It adds to your resume, it makes you more likely to be trusted. You know, having that media room, it like she said, it doesn't matter if everybody recognizes all the different things that you've done. It just shows that other people, other outlets, other platforms believed you had what it took and believed you had something to offer. And that is that's amazing. That's what you have to focus on, you know, like getting mentioned one time, like we've talked about, easily forgotten, especially if you're showing up in conversations where you didn't belong in the first place. Nobody knows what to do with that. But as Penny alluded to, repeat exposure, you know, so you pay a lot of money for this, for this one thing, and then go figure it's not until three or four impressions down the road where maybe they see a book bub ad, or you pop up on their Amazon search where they go, Oh yeah, I forgot about that book. Let me look at it again. You know, books are rarely purchased as impulse items the first time they hear about it. It's just not how it works.

SPEAKER_00 20:44

Well, and I knew that a lot when I buy books, I'm like, oh yeah, now I've seen this, you know, I I I've seen this book multiple times. I think, oh, this is something that I, you know, this is definitely something that I'm Same.

SPEAKER_01 20:54

I've seen books where I'm like, okay, cover's good, sounds interesting, but I have a lot of other books to read first. But then the next time I see it, Penny, all of a sudden it's got 50 reviews. And I'm like, okay, clearly some people are paying attention. Now I'm a little more interested, right? Yeah. And I'm not saying 50 reviews is the magic number, but truly, like shoppers all have those kind of, you know, they're looking to check certain boxes. And it's it's different for different people, but rarely is it just, oh, I have nothing better to do, and I have nothing on my to be read list, and I completely ran out of books, and I'm just gonna take a chance on somebody I've never heard of. Like that is a very unusual book discovery process.

Marketing Books That Require Trust

SPEAKER_00 21:31

That is it's a very unusual book discovery process. The other thing is, too, is we talked about this in the green room. We were sort of brainstorming some other show ideas. Familiarity reduces perceived risk. And books are different than any other product that's out there because there are studies that show that consumers are significantly more likely to choose brands they recognize even without detailed knowledge. But brands, okay, so we always talk about author, the author brand, but brands. And books. So if you're buying like a new like red light LED red light face mask, it's a little bit different than when you're buying a book because that book is asking for your time. Whereas like your little red light mask is asking you for five minutes a day or whatever, your book isn't asking for an investment. So, but um in terms of you know familiarity, that is where the compounding effect can really come in. So when people, when you know, consumers are seeing something over and over again, that really makes that that makes a difference. So if you know, if you came into this episode thinking that this was going to be all about publicity, I realize we didn't talk about, we have other shows on pitching, go back and listen to those. We have tons of shows actually on pitching. This is really about helping you to set the stage for better, for, you know, for for that, for a better funnel, really. Right. Um, because and a better use of your investment, honestly. And yeah, right, exactly. And as, you know, and a and a smarter, a smarter investment. Because, you know, recognition of a book and seeing it multiple times and using publicity or any kind of marketing that you're doing strategically for that, um that's really where that that's really where that you you get into that sweet spot. And um, that's where the magic really starts to happen. Uh, all right. So did we cover everything in the show? We did. We did it. I think we did. I think we did. Now, here's the interesting thing. So we also have a listener question, and I thought this really fit well into the show in particular. So, devoted listener and debut author. I love that they started this, that they started this off following as much of your advice as possible. Sorry, I have to add that. I love that. By the way, we love the props. We are not above, we love compliments. So yeah. I do love Amy and I were also talking about in the green room. We have a whole list of listener questions on this, and one of them was basically just telling us how fabulous we are. And Amy's like, should we remove that? I'm like, oh heck no, I love reading that when we get into listener questions. Um, one question I keep returning to does conventional book marketing work similarly or against books that require deep reader trust? I'm thinking of books like grief, spiritual struggle, caregiver exhaustion, where readers aren't browsing, they're searching. Discoverability is still required, but trusted recommendations seem to be the real fuel. This is such a brilliant question. And here's why. If you've written a book on grief just because you've had a loss in your life, and that's awful, and I get it, it's gonna be a really hard sell. Yes. I mean, Amy, talk about that. So, in your actually, you know, this is a really good question for Amy to answer. Like, not that because you vet a lot of these authors, you vet all of them that come through. And that's the first, like for especially for a nonfiction book, that's the you the first thing you look for, right? Is the credibility of the author.

SPEAKER_01 25:00

Right. I want to know, and I a lot of times my first email back to them is tell me more about yourself, tell me about your background in this, tell me why you decided to write this book, you know, because while every experience is absolutely valid, like Penny said, that, you know, if you wrote a book on grief, that is awful. But that is something that a lot of people have shared.

unknown 25:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:23

A lot of people have experienced that. So, yes, absolutely. You know, when you say conventional book marketing, I think that's also kind of, you know, subjective in terms of what you find conventional. Yes. Um, but I think a lot of what we talk about is that, you know, it's your foundation. So there's a lot of book marketing strategies that can work for a lot of different types of books and markets, but it's what you're bringing to the table and what you're giving people when they get there. Are you going to convert them? You know, are you going to be able to convince them that this is what they're looking for, that it's worth their time, that it's worth, you know what I mean? Are you answering the right questions? Things like that. Yeah. So I think it's, it's, it's less about does conventional book marketing work? I mean, again, that's a loaded question, but I think absolutely the person that sent this in is right, you know, they're thinking in the right terms of, no, it's not the same. You're not going to convert somebody the same way you are if you've written genre fiction.

SPEAKER_00 26:28

Right, exactly. And and that's really where, I mean, and I don't care how you published your book for me. I read a lot of nonfiction. I am looking at, I'm looking at the credibility of the author in terms of like, what's their experience in this space? What's their experience with, you know, whatever, like if I'm reading a business book or something, um, you'd, you know, you'd better bring I I'm looking for the receipts, basically, is the the short form away the way to say it. So I think that is actually a really, a really, really good question. We could probably do an entire show around that too.

SPEAKER_01 27:00

Yeah, we might need to, because I think, you know, there's somebody recently that reached out to us, Penny, that on the surface, I was thinking, like, this is, you know what I mean? I don't know how much we can get involved here. But then after I asked some questions and I got the behind the scenes that, you know, more background on where this book came from, I realized that the author just had missed a bunch of opportunities and how they were presenting their book and their brand. And they're in it was like, whoa, so there there is a lot of substance there. It's just that's when we talk about you get too close to your own work to realize what's missing.

Text Line And Review Request

SPEAKER_00 27:39

Yeah, that's actually a really big, that's a really big one because we as authors sometimes we're our own worst enemies, right? And we do get, you know, it's it's funny because Amy and and look, I do book marketing and publicity for a living. Amy has sometimes come at me with like, Penny, your bio needs to be stronger. You need to mention this. You we are our own worst enemies, right? So it's really a good idea if this is if you're thinking about getting into, you know, uh the market that requires quote unquote deep reader trust. Have somebody evaluate that for you. And we're happy to do it, that this is not a for our services, but we are happy to do that. Have somebody evaluate your expertise because you may be really ready to launch this and you have a ton of expertise and a ton of background, but you need to be more forthcoming about that. And that's the other thing, too. And that's why it's always good to get a second, I think, to get another objective opinion about where you are with your expertise for writing this book. And in some cases, like we've got authors, I've got authors who have gotten in, you know, uh forwards and endorsements from people who have loads and loads of credibility in the industry as they're writing the book. And in many cases, that works too. So yeah, I think we may want to do another show, a show on this because this is a this was Brianna. We really appreciate this question. This and we've always appreciated the compliment. But this was a really great question. I I love that. And I don't think enough authors, I think it was smart to ask that. I don't think that enough authors really spend a lot of time thinking about that. Yep. Thank you. So thank you so much. Listen, uh, we love your questions. I think, I think on last week's show I may have neglected uh to give the podcast uh phone number, but uh excuse me, the number, the the text number. Apparently I can't talk. We're yet at the end of the show, and I'm like losing the thread of all the things. So we have a uh a conversation going. You can text the word podcast to 888-402-8940. And that's a direct way to communicate with both Amy and myself. Send us your show ideas, send us your questions. That's how we got this question. Um and you know, what did you like, what you didn't like about the show? We always want to be improving. So the pod the the communication, the texting is a great way to stay in touch with us. Text the word podcast to 888 402 8940. We would love to hear from you. And please leave a review wherever you listen to reviews. We love those as well. Thank you so much. We'll see you next time. Bye bye.