Your Amazon Retail Page Has a Problem and You Probably Can't See It

Your Amazon book page might be costing you sales—and the worst part is, you probably can’t see it.

Most authors assume that once their book is uploaded, the hard part is done. But in reality, your Amazon page is a live sales environment, and small misses can quietly kill conversions every single day. A great book isn’t enough if the page around it isn’t doing its job.

In this episode, we break down the hidden issues that stop readers from clicking “Buy,” starting with the two-inch thumbnail test. Can your cover be read instantly? Does it signal the right genre in seconds? If not, you’re losing readers before they ever click through.

We also get into the mechanics of a high-converting description—why your first 140 characters matter more than anything else, how “burying the lead” drains momentum, and what actually turns casual browsers into buyers. From there, we look at A+ Content (the “From the publisher” section) and how to use it strategically—even if you don’t have awards, endorsements, or a big platform.

You’ll also hear why most keyword strategies fail, especially when they’re built using tools or AI that don’t reflect real shopper behavior. We walk through how readers actually search on Amazon—and how to align your keywords with that behavior so your book shows up where it should.

We cover one of the most expensive mistakes authors make: running ads to a page that isn’t optimized. If your page doesn’t convert, you’re not just wasting money—you’re actively training Amazon’s algorithm to stop showing your book.

Finally, we unpack “ghost categories,” how to identify them inside KDP, and why being in the wrong (or invisible) category can quietly tank your visibility.

If your book isn’t selling the way it should, your Amazon page is the first place to look—and this episode shows you exactly what to fix.

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Transcript

Why Your Amazon Page Matters

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Hello and welcome back to the book marketing tips author success podcast. This is Penny Sansberry and Amy Cornell. And I I love this show. I I love talking about Amazon, as I know Amy also loves talking about Amazon. And I taught a class for AFK just a couple of weeks ago now. And if by the way, if you're a new listener and you come from that class, welcome, welcome, we're so glad, we're so glad that you're here. And the class was all about your Amazon retail page, and it was amazing how the response I got from that class was the majority was I had no idea.

SPEAKER_00 0:44

And I think that if you if you haven't touched your Amazon retail page in more than six months, almost sorry, Amy just Amy just felt well because for as much as we do prep for these in chat before we get on, there's a lot of it we do not. So I'm sitting here thinking like Penny's gonna say six weeks or something. So yes, six months for sure. Sorry, that's where the oof came from. I'm like, oof. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:14

No, I mean, but don't you agree? Like, if you haven't touched your Amazon retail page in six months, you are leaving opportunities and sales, sales, opportunities meaning sales on the table, right?

SPEAKER_00 1:27

Right, absolutely. And not just because your Amazon presence shouldn't be static, very similar to a storefront, right? People redo their storefronts all the time. Every time you go to the grocery store, things are in different places, you know, all the plus special stuff. So that's very much a very real retail situation. But I mean, for those of us, especially our listeners, Penny, who are clearly dedicated to educating themselves, if you haven't updated your page in six months, I would bet most of you know more than you did six months ago that you can apply, right? Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:00

Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 2:01

There's that factor too.

No Shortcuts And AI Keyword Traps

SPEAKER_01 2:02

Right, exactly. And I think that, you know, book descriptions evolve. It even if it's just to add, you know, new reviews, keywords definitely evolve. And can I just interject here for really? So I had an author the other day send me their the keyword research that Chat GPT did for them. Please stop doing that. And this is not about this is not about you hiring us over like using your chat. Chat GPT is really fun, like I get it, but it just stop because the keywords that they sent me were awful. I I I there's probably a more descriptive word that I can use, but then we would get a weird rating on Apple. So I uh on iTunes, so I won't do that. But um yeah, it so there are no shortcuts. I mean, I guess I just say there are no shortcuts to having a really great retail page. And here's the thing though, too. So a lot of authors think of their Amazon page just as a listing, like it's a book listing, right? But Amazon treats your retail page as a search engine. And I think that uh understanding that alone really changes the dynamic of how we how we should treat our retail pages. And the other thing though, too, is that the A10 algorithm, we did a show on this, so we're not gonna go down the rabbit hole on the A10 algorithm in this particular episode, but the A10 algorithm changed, it was actually a really smart, like at first we were just like, oh my gosh, we're so panicked. What is this algorithm? The A10 algorithm changed the way that Amazon re um approaches books or basically all content that that's on the Amazon site, but books in particular, because there Amazon has an AI problem. They have, and this is not uh speeding up on AI because you know there are definitely good uses for it. Writing a book is not one of them. Okay. So just be clear about if you're if you're using AI. You know what's so funny is I posted something to my personal Facebook page. Actually, it was that meme that you sent me about chat chat GPT page. Oh, yeah, right? I posted that to my personal Facebook page. Yeah. And somebody, that was really funny. And somebody popped on there and they said, then you don't know how to use Chat GPT because I use it to write books all the time. And I'm just like, oh, you are a horrible person. So and I wanted to go in there and comment. And I I don't really like I try not to fight with strangers on social media, but I'm just like, oh my gosh, you're a horrible person. Like, I can't even believe that you're but anyway.

SPEAKER_00 4:44

Um, well, no, I think to your point too, Penny. Sorry, real quick, you mentioned um, you know, don't use AI to develop your keywords to help with your retail page. And I would honestly say, don't use any sort of automated programming system aggregator for anything related to your marketing strategy without also being educated on that yourself to some degree where you can control it and you can make smart, you can push, you can make smart, do smart vetting, you know what I mean? You can question what it spits out, you know. So, like you said, it can be a great tool for a lot of things, but it doesn't replace being educated on the topic and knowing what to look for, you know.

SPEAKER_01 5:34

That's actually that's a really, really good point because you you can't. I and and again, I saw this other meme the other day that said, take good care of your health, because in five years your surgeon's gonna be trained on ChatGPT. I was like, Oh, that's terrifying. And that's probably true. No, I think that you really have to, I think if you're gonna use it for any of your marketing, I think that you really have to kind of know, you have to really understand, you can't just blindly follow whatever it says. Because that that's the thing that Netflix will end up making a series about about people, right?

SPEAKER_00 6:12

Blindly exactly, right? You want to be educated enough to control the output and to be able to push and to make demands on the quality and the and you know what I mean, and what it spits out. So yeah, use it. But I appreciate all of you that are regular listeners because you're doing the work to educate yourself, and that's exactly how it has to start.

The Cover Thumbnail Conversion Test

SPEAKER_01 6:32

And the thing about it is, though, too, is that the A10 algorithm knew that, you know, as it was implemented, knew that the the AI written books were going to be a problem on Amazon. And there's there's still a problem. Like an Amazon is really kind of, I mean, sorry if anybody from Amazon's listening, like, do better. The A10 algorithm was a great help. What the A A10 algorithm did is it forces authors to be actual authors. In other words, if you are cheating and using Chat GPT to write your book, you're probably not interested in having a platform or a website or all the things. And as I said, we did a whole show on this. So go definitely go back and listen to it. Because even though it was a few months ago, the the ideas in the show are still very, very relevant to today. But the problem with books written by AI is sometimes it's really, really, really hard to tell, other than the fact that the author, generally, people who use AI to write a book aren't in it to win it, right? They're not gonna be doing any kind of promotion or have a website and all the things. But they're still clogging the retail space on Amazon, which is why when you're stepping away from your book after it's been uploaded to Amazon, you cannot just treat it like a listing. It is a retail search engine. So that search engine, and I'm gonna let I'm gonna turn this over to you because I think this is this is such an important context, right? The cover thumbnail test. So we look at covers and this is really beautiful. I really love this cover. And then you look at it in the thumbnail and you're just like, I can't even make out what's happening right now.

SPEAKER_00 8:01

Right. Yep. All of a sudden you can't read the author name anymore. The fun font that was used for the title makes it hard to read. You can all the contrast doesn't work right between the font color and predominant color in the imagery. Like there's just so much that can go south quickly when it's small versus that like beautiful big file that you look at when you're, you know, when you're making your approvals or somebody's sending it back to you, or God forbid, making it yourself. That's a whole different show. But things don't. Yeah, no, yeah, but but truly shrink it down because that is, and the main reason is because that is how most people will end up seeing your book for the first time. A lot of them are going to see a thumbnail. And if it's not a wow factor when it's small, you know, if you try to convince yourself, like, well, once they get to my book page or once they start reading it, they'll love it. It's like you are 18 steps ahead of yourself, right? If that cover is not converting and if that cover is not drawing people in because they can't conceptualize what the book is about or read any part of it for any reason, you've already lost them. So this is not something you want to sleep on.

Your First 140 Characters Sell

SPEAKER_01 9:13

No, it's not. And I think the first thing, like if you're listening to this, if you you know, earbuds in, if you got your phone with you, because you're listening to this podcast, pull your book up book up. I mean, keep listening to us, please, but pull your book up on Amaz on the Amazon app and take a look at it because that's the like can you read the title? Is the genre instantly clear? You know, what does it look like on a white background? And if any of those is uh like then that's that's a big problem. So that's your first, that is most definitely your your you know, your first checklist. Um, the next one, and this is something that I know Amy and uh Amy's gonna has very strong feelings about as well, um, your your description, right? So here's something that not enough people are talking about. You have approximately, and I I didn't count them, but approximately 140 characters before somebody's can hit the read more button, right? In your book description on Amazon, your first 140 characters are your actual sales pitch, right? And actually, you know what? Your retail description is that is your sales meeting, that is your sales pitch, that is everything. So make sure that those 140 characters absolutely count because you really once you get somebody to click read more, you're much closer to a sale than somebody who's just like, oh this, I feel a little indifferent about this.

SPEAKER_00 10:50

Um Right. Yeah, Penny, you use the term all the time, burying the lead. You know, you don't want to save your most compelling psychological pull for the end of your description because you can't assume they're going to get that far. I think if the biggest thing you take away about any of this is that you can't assume they will make it as far as you want them to make it. You really have to do the best of the best from the jump.

SPEAKER_01 11:14

And a lot of authors treat their book descriptions like a book synopsis, right? They that they write book descriptions like they're pitching to a publisher, which I get it. Like that's the thing that like we're always told that like work on your pitch, work on your pitch. So the plot summaries, the characters, the backstory, or the you know, the benefits, but a lot of that is a lot of the the real oomph of whether you've written fiction or nonfiction is buried at the end.

SPEAKER_00 11:45

Right. Yes, the synopsis. I think that is the biggest trap because you can have a really well done book synopsis, isn't it? And as an author, that feels very productive. It feels like it's going to work. You know what I mean? So when, and that's one reason we love to do this kind of work with our clients, because it's very, very hard when you're so close to your book to be entirely objective about what other what's going to make other people pay attention, you know. You know your book almost too well, right, Penny? Yeah, exactly. Like you know your book too well. I see this a lot, especially in fiction, where there will be details in the description that are actually going to be more confusing and kind of put a crack in the process of getting to know the book for somebody that doesn't know the book at all. Does that make sense? Yes. I see that a lot where they get into details where it's like this makes sense to you because you know the book left, right, upside down and sideways, right? But to somebody that is just getting introduced to it, when you get too far into the weeds with some details, you you kind of make that initial first impression and that experience of them trying to consume what your book is about, it doesn't flow as well because then they're sitting there making them question things when they should just be going, yes, yes, okay, this is what I want, you know.

A Plus Content That Lifts Sales

SPEAKER_01 13:05

Well, and that is something that I think that is first up, that is extremely well put. I think that we get as authors, and I've done this too with my own book description, we get out over our skis with uh, you know, including things that don't necessarily make sense to somebody who is landing on who is discovering your book the first time and has no idea, you know, how this book is going to benefit them or how it's going to entertain them or whatever that is, right? And this is part of the reason we did a show on elevator pitches last Q4 last year. And go back and listen to that because one of the reasons that we talk about elevator pitches so much is because that one, those 140 characters in your book description, um, that is your first punch. That is your first, you know, way to grab a uh a potential reader's attention. And ideally, that should be your elevator pitch because that's the thing that's gonna get them to want to, if it's done well, that's the thing that's gonna get them to want to think more deeply about this. Um visual content. Now we did a whole show on A plus content, so we're not gonna necessarily go too far down the rabbit hole, but A plus content can absolutely lift conversions as high as 8%, meaning that you convert your, you know, shopper to a buyer. So, Amy, talk us through because a lot of times I get this question a lot when I do consultations with authors. A plus content, because you do the A plus content for our authors. So where is it? Where does it live on the retail page? That kind of thing.

SPEAKER_00 14:50

Yeah, believe it or not, and that's true. And unless somebody's familiar with it, they're like, where the heck does this go? Yeah, exactly. When you add it, it shows up as a from the publisher, which I think is also makes it extra confusing for indie authors. You know what I mean? Because it's like, okay, I guess that's me. But the way Amazon presents it can sometimes be confusing. Um, but you know, what's also, I think, a huge hurdle with A plus content, Penny, that I see is that, and this is another reason why, you know, working with somebody, this is another shameless plug, but by working with somebody that fully understands where you're at in your author career and where this book has gone and what your platform can support and things like that can be really important because if you just look up general recommendations for A plus content, you're gonna read a lot of things that you should have on there that you probably don't have access to if you're just starting out, you know, or if you haven't done a lot with your platform yet. Because you're gonna read like, you have to do your awards and your big, your big, you know, big name reviews, and you're sitting there going, oh, awesome. I have none of that yet. But that doesn't, you can't have A plus content because A plus content when you're just starting out can really be as simple as setting the stage for your reader and what the experience will be like for them. That is psychologically powerful. You know what I mean? So really digging into it's almost like really you could have really great A plus content to steal Penny's idea and basically create different elevator pitch style, like little bite-sized pieces of book descriptors for what the experience will be with your book. And that can be really powerful because it's visual and people are automatically drawn to visuals before they are big chunks of text. So taking some of the best of the best ways to even describe what the reader will experience with your book and putting that into a visual format is something that's available to every author, even if you're brand new, and you don't have awards and you don't have like all these special recognitions yet, right? Which because I I do think A plus content feels a little out of reach when authors only go by the big general recommendations for what needs to go there.

SPEAKER_01 17:07

Yeah, exactly. And that this is part of the reason why we say that if you have a touchdown page in six months, you're probably missing out on sales because you could be updating your A plus content with the things that you mentioned, right? Awards, reviews, things like that. And you know, the mind is an image processor, it's not a word processor. So when we're looking at a website, and in particular as it relates to a website, I mean, you know, it's not that we don't, because that's that sounds really terrible when you're talking about books. Oh, we just really like images. So the next book you publish should just be a picture book. Um but when it comes to when it comes to websites, I mean, we process images so much faster than we do uh content, you know, written content. That's another reason why the A plus content, you know, the A Plus content is just it's it's a it's a magical piece that a lot of authors don't have or don't really understand. So take a moment to kind of explore it. If you don't have access to your Amazon page in order to do this, your publisher can do it for you. So I would definitely ask for it.

SPEAKER_00 18:11

And at the end of the day, Penny, a lot of what we're talking about too, just to like not to oversimplify it, but it shows you're putting in the work and it makes you look that much more professional than the other six books they just looked at. Let's, you know what I mean?

Keywords Based On Reader Searches

SPEAKER_01 18:24

Yeah, yeah, exactly. And I want to talk about I I want so I'd love for you to talk about the keyword stuff. I want to talk. We we I didn't tease this in the beginning, but we definitely want to talk about ghost categories because it's kind of a buzzy buzzword out there right now. But I wanted to let's talk about keywords and first. Amy, do you want to take that one? Because keywords are also so misunderstood.

SPEAKER_00 18:51

They are very misunderstood. And again, we've done shows on this, so please go and check those out. Consider those kind of the deep dive version of what we're covering today. But the biggest mistake that we see authors make is they choose keywords that describe their book. And if anybody's listening and going, like, well, yeah, duh. You know what I mean? Like, they're my keywords. So if if that was your approach or has been your approach, we get it. But the reality is keywords really only work if they reflect how readers are searching for books that they end up buying. So having a bunch of keywords that are so unique to your book that nobody is possibly going to show up to Amazon and start searching for is problematic. So I like to describe keywords as like that connecting string between your book and how people are using Amazon. You know, the the good keywords draw connections for people where they don't realize, you know what I mean? Like nobody shows up to Amazon searching for your book. I hate to, you know, if that ruins everybody's day, I'm really sorry. But it's true. But they are searching for something, whether it's fiction or nonfiction, they are searching for something. They are looking to resolve something, they are looking to get a certain experience out of the book. And that is what your keywords should tie into. It should tie into what people are there looking for because that will naturally create a pathway to your book and ensure that your book starts showing up when they are searching for those terms. So that is the biggest difference. You're not describing your book, you're trying to connect to what shoppers are already doing on Amazon. So your book shows up for those people.

Make Look Inside Work Harder

SPEAKER_01 20:29

Right. Exactly. Exactly. Um so uh the other piece of it though, too, and we don't authors do not always have control over this, is the look inside the book feature, right? So look inside the book um shows typically the first 10% of your book. So for most authors, this is the title page, the copyright, the dedication, the acknowledgements, the table of contents. This is a little bit challenging, I realize, because we don't always have control over, like if you're working with the publisher, what goes, you know, what's in that front matter of the book. My suggestion to you is don't try not to waste it. Try not to waste the opportunity that the look inside the book offers. Because when you get somebody, so by the time somebody gets to the look inside, clicks on the look inside the book, they have already clicked the read more in your description. The price looks okay. They've read the description, now they want to do a look inside the book, right? Don't waste that opportunity. And as I said, and if you if you're not really sure what this is, go and go on to Amazon and click on some of the look inside the books on just on other titles you know in your market, and you'll kind of see what I mean. Look inside the book is a really great, very, very underused feature. And as I said, it's a tiny little bit of a slippery slope because we don't always have control if we're working with the publisher. What you know, what's what you see in there is it just a of you know copyright notices and here are other books that I've written and the other things and that's not very gonna gonna be very interesting to a potential reader either.

SPEAKER_00 22:09

You know what I love about this Penny? I oh go ahead. No go ahead go ahead. No, but I love what I love about your recommendation to really rethink how you want to present the beginning of your book with the look inside feature in mind. I I just there's something about it I just love that it's bucking the traditional like this is how books have to be made. You know what I mean? Like this has to go here and this has to go here. It's like absolutely not you know what I mean there's no police coming and going that's not allowed to go there. It's your book. You know what I mean? And if you're doing this strategically think about what should be in that first 10%. Yeah. Because once somebody's got it, they're already into it. You know what I mean? Like so I I love this so much. I love the idea of not just doing what we've always been done because that's how it's been done and doing what's in your best interest. And I think look inside is also really important for certain kinds of books. And I'm just gonna throw it out there because it's the first thing that comes to mind. But anything related to children's books and things like that, younger audiences, because those books are being purchased on behalf of you know what I mean. Thank you. And so you really want to show a parent again using this example what the inside of this book is going to look like. Because children's books, you know, that is one thing online retail for children's books, you need to take advantage of all these features because it is very different than the experience of a parent getting to hold it in their hands and look through and go, yes, my kid would like this for sure or these illustrations are super cute and well done. Like that's the experience you want to still give them but online. And it's nearly impossible to do without the look inside and without taking advantage of your A content and giving them some additional visual cues that let them say like yes this is in line with what I expect a children's book to be or what I know my kids like.

SPEAKER_01 23:59

Well and I think the other market I mean I I would say pretty much anything in not I not you know in nonfiction because like I read a lot of business books and when you read a lot of business books I and I hate to say this business book authors if you're listening you get a little bit jaded right because you're like oh well I I read that in another book like so the look inside really helps me to decide is this something that is going to be worth my time it's not even about worth my money because as you know like it's a time investment right is this going to be worth my time here's the other thing and I want to really I want to really emphasize something that Amy said because this is where this is why traditional publishers with all due respect to the industry but this is why traditional publishers have often failed because they've done things the way that they've always done things because that's how we've always done them. And to her point of okay so we right so copyright notice probably needs to be in front like I get it there are some legalities around that but you know I understand that your dedication and your acknowledgments are important to you the only person or people who read the dedication or acknowledgments are the people who are in the dedication and acknowledgments. And I hate to I hate to sound like really crass but it but it's really true. Like and why can't that be at the end of your book? Like why does it all have to be in front taking up this really valuable space right? Right.

SPEAKER_00 25:22

I love that so much.

SPEAKER_01 25:24

I mean it but it it's really it's really true because I think and especially again like for you nonfiction folks out there I am absolutely checking out the table of contents to see and this is another thing though too and I I don't want to get we could as any of you who have been listening to us for a while know we can get very far down the rabbit hole. But your table of contents for you nonfiction authors and I've learned this the hard way myself man it better be really descriptive there is no such thing as too much information in your table of contents because if somebody is looking at the the first 10% of your book and it stops at the table of contents man you'd better tell me so if you just if your table of contents just says chapter one chapter two go stop just stop this is crazy. No I get really and you know initially I I felt like I don't give away too much of the book and what's in the book and I'm like no that's that's actually the point like and so the other side of Penny said that's actually the point right my table of contents if you look at any of my books is super like I even do you know the different like the the subheads and things like that. I include all of that in table of contents so you absolutely know what you're getting and that this book is right for you.

Ads Fail On Weak Retail Pages

SPEAKER_00 26:37

And if you only get the first 10% of my book and it stops the table of contents you know what you're getting so and I I think you may make a very good point for nonfiction especially because like you said anybody that's reading nonfiction it's very unlikely your book is their first book on the topic. Thank you. Yep yeah you you have to imagine they've probably read at minimum six other titles looking for the help support answers whatever that they need inspiration you know insert all those great things and so they there's a bar right yeah they they are picky there are certain things that Penny does not need to read for the 10th time like and if your book is just regurgitating things she's already read that's not gonna do it you know right exactly or if there's an entire like if the second half of the book is all about building a great website for your business I'm like no we're we're set like you know what I mean so that's not a book that I'm necessarily going to pick up.

Ghost Categories And How To Spot

SPEAKER_01 27:32

The other thing that I wanted to mention too is is books that have uh poorly optimized retail pages. So retail pages that have sort of been abandoned right um they really struggle to convert paid traffic so put throwing money at something is not going is that that's not a marketing I mean like I say this and obviously we are a marketing team we get paid for what we do but throwing money at poor decisions is not going to make your decision right better. I that I said that very convoluted because I started down a road and I'm like oh no wait I wanted to say it differently but anyway if throwing money like saying well you know what I get it Penny and Amy this is sounds like a lot of work I don't really know I'm just gonna run ads if your if your retail page is poorly optimized first off your ads aren't going to convert secondly your ads are going to cost more money and third and probably the most important is Amazon is going to see that you're sending all this traffic to a page that not can does not convert. And guess what the number Amazon's number one priority is to put Jeff Bezos in space. And obviously in order to do that they have to sell a lot of stuff right so they're going to stop showing your book to the market that it should be shown to and it's going to be somewhere in the in the Amazon basement and you don't want to do that. So that's part of the reason why we wanted to do this. Finally I and I want to like I think it's you know there's a whole lot of stuff out there about ghost categories and I want to have Amy walk us through this because she does a lot of our optimizations and she sees this a lot it's kind of a really weird thing. So first off the term ghost category is kind of this catchy and Amy and I were talking about yesterday was kind of funny we were like is it spooky season yet? I mean I know it's only April obviously we really we really like soon to start planning though we really like spooky season because we're already at like oh is it spooky season yet but ghost categories has this like this really weird like this kind of I don't know if you want to use the word fun branding but it's like oh what's a ghost category?

SPEAKER_00 29:43

Because I taught this in the ASJA class and everybody was like oh tell us more about the ghost categories but really they're just categories that Amazon basically Amazon is punking us and they're categories that don't exist right but they've been given this really spooky name yeah and I think I mean to some degree they're useful to Amazon because you're still telling them something about your book but they're not useful to you really not as much right Amazon's still learning about your book if you choose a ghost category and where you think it should belong and the kind of people that would like it and all that good stuff. But it really falls flat in terms of obviously you're not really going to ever rank for it because it doesn't really exist.

SPEAKER_01 30:26

So that's a bummer right I mean we all like our recognition and if you're not going to rank for something it's really hard to want to justify that that's where your book should be honestly yeah like so so how do you so tell us where because the ghost I so I get it and you're real you're very nice like you're telling Amazon more about what your book is about but to me it just feels like I'm being punked. So how does somebody know if they're in a ghost category?

SPEAKER_00 31:00

Because now you've piqued everybody's interest so right so and ghost categories exist for both fiction or excuse me I'm always used to saying fiction and nonfiction both Kindle and print books. So but this works both ways. So what I'm going to share the testing of it works both ways. So just putting that out there. So basically the and this gets trickier for people that don't have access to their their own backend you know but for what it's worth you can still anybody can go through and as long as you have an Amazon login you can pretend to make a book and look at what the category options are. So even if you have a publisher you still can do your due diligence if they are open to your feedback and requests. So just because you have a publisher doesn't mean you can't check on this yourself. You just can't change it yourself. I wanted to put that out there too Penny because I don't think a lot of authors realize that they can still do a lot of this self-education even if they have a publisher or a publishing service. So you can still educate yourself and you can still you know um you can still make those requests and make those demands of whoever does have control of your book. But essentially when you're on the back end of Amazon and selecting categories as you would for your book, they will let you click on once you pick like the very last most you know kind of niche bucket that you're going to end up in, you can actually click that and it'll open that category on Amazon in a new tab. And from there it's a pretty it's pretty easy to tell because if it's a real category there will be a category path which is essentially that left hand sidebar on Amazon where it will start with Kindle you know what I mean and then it'll go to something super broad like mystery and thriller or science fiction and fantasy and then we'll go even more narrow and more narrow so that is a pathway that's a category pathway for anybody you've seen that before even if you weren't registering that's what it is. So when you're on the back end of KDP and you're kind of testing out which categories will work for you you can click through and if it's a ghost category you will see no category path dump you into that last little bucket and that's all you're going to see there. That tells you that that is not a real category. It's just Amazon showing you the other books that have unfortunately picked that ghost category also essentially isn't that weird so weird.

SPEAKER_01 33:29

It's so weird I just I don't know it's like is Amazon not paying attention like I I but anyway it yeah I would like to know their justification for doing that and I'm sure it's very self-serving you know I think so too I mean like I said you are really nice that go tells Amazon more about your book I'm like yeah but then it just it shows up nowhere again it's like you're willingly putting yourself in the Amazon basement. And according to some research there's no and let me just put this out there much like there's no way to know exactly how many books exist on Amazon, there's no way to know if this figure is absolutely correct. But according to some posts that I've read 20% 27% of the categories that you can select on the KDP dashboard are ghost categories like that just that just sounds crazy to me yeah I agree.

SPEAKER_00 34:22

Sorry did I just no I I I'm I'm still stuck on and not to help Amazon out like I'm not their PR person but like I'm still stuck on the justification. Like I wonder if it's partly like maybe this is some weird like testing version you know what I mean just before they roll out something as an official category they're gonna see how much people you know people are engaging with it and how much people want to put their books in there before Amazon commits to actually adding it. But at the same time Amazon has some weird ass categories for things I'm like really that's a category before some of these other like it's like some again sometimes I think they're just messing with us to see what happens or it was like somebody lost a bet in you know what I mean in R D and was like haha like now we're gonna have to add this like yeah no and absolutely that's that that is sometimes what it feels like.

SPEAKER_01 35:14

Yeah some of them and you know to Amy's point I do think that some of this is is testing like I don't necessarily think that Amazon is just out to punk all of us but I do think that some of this is testing. So if you see a category and it ends up being a ghost category and you're like oh I have to pull my book out of there great glad you found it but keep an eye because it no because it could end up being a category at some point. You know what I mean?

Listener Text Line And Wrap

SPEAKER_00 35:39

Like it could end up being and I know you make this recommendation in a lot of your books Penny but definitely keep track of what you see and what you find. You know if you're an Excel person, great. If you're a sheets person, if you just want to keep it in a word doc that you'll eventually sift through but to your point it is absolutely worth paying attention and keeping track of what you find and when and revisiting that because the Amazon does rule. So if you go dang this would be a great category for me but unfortunately now that I've listened to this show I found out that it's not real yet. But so keep that don't lose track that it's on there in some capacity and check back with it because you never know they may roll it out as an official category in the near future.

SPEAKER_01 36:21

Yeah no that that that is a very good point. Well we hope that the show has been helpful to you it just I mean I think it's a really good reminder that your Amazon page isn't a one and done setup. It is is a living sales tool and when you treat it that way and you're constantly looking for ways to improve it. And that look we're not encouraging you to be on your page every day because that's that's an unhealthy habit that neither Amy nor I want to encourage anybody to do. But I think spending time on there because you know you miss we we all miss stuff. I mean I miss stuff and I do this for a living. So um get on your sales page start first by taking a look at your cover thumbnail I think many of you may be surprised and there may be some gasps but we'd love to hear from you too um you know it also by the way if you have show ideas uh if you want to give us show feedback all of that stuff we have a um you can text us Amy do you know the number by heart I'm just totally gonna put you on the spot oh no I do not know the number by heart let me just let me pull it up for a second I don't think you're gonna try to fake that one and look it up real quick. I totally got stumped but listen text us I barely know my own phone number Penny isn't funny you know do you remember like we used to be gods we used to remember phone numbers we used to remember directions without needing our phone I don't know what happened like I remember my childhood best friend's home phone number and that's probably probably the only phone number I know. Isn't that funny? Yeah we we used to really we used to be like all like Indiana Jones just doing all the things and now I can't even remember like my I can't remember my phone number. But text the word podcast to 888-402-8940 and that is a way to communicate with us show ideas questions we love questions we knew that this show was going long so we had some questions that we couldn't we didn't have the time to address today but we'll definitely do it in the next show. Send us show ideas questions show feedback all the things we'd love to hear from you. Thank you so much for tuning in and we'll see you next week. Bye bye